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Why do pirates act lole denuvo is the reasom they pirate

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User Info: BearShrooms

BearShrooms
2 months ago#131
GTL581

I'm not going to go out and requote all that stuff and mess with the formatting. I'll just respond anew here.

In regards to the lying/can't know thing. I NEVER ONCE said you were calling me a liar, I asked if you were. Yes, you are technically correct. The assumption that piracy hurts or helps is nothing more than assumption. Fictional universe aside we can't know what people would do without piracy. Since we have to stick with a reality in which piracy does exist, we have to make decisions of knowledge based off of the data available. The data is and will never be anything but claims. So, unless literally every pirate is "lying" about demos, then we can probably safely assume that piracy does at least help some, and at least hurt some. There is no fictional universe necessary to discern this. So a claim of piracy helping is actually accurate, unless I'm/others are lying.

About company scams; is it impossible for you to envision a scenario where an individual does a bunch of research and still gets scammed? I mean, look at it this way: A company falsely advertises their product, then pays off a few "review" sites, no other demos/videos are provided. In this situation, the first person to buy it is literally 100% capable of being scammed and nothing they could've done other than not buying the game would've prevented that from happening. What if that person doesn't post their legitimate review for others to see? Is the second person not a "smart consumer" because they didn't see the first persons nonexistent reviews? What if every consumer were a "smart consumer", how would a game sell a single copy if no one took the risk?

I'm not sure what you're going on about when people actually do pirate for the sake of getting stuff for free. I've never argued that they don't. YOU were the one arguing that all piracy is slimy. I simply posed a what if scenario that you ignored.

You can eat half a meal and then choose not to pay, actually. That's why you pay AFTER you eat at almost every restaurant and will get immediate refunds at any place that charges you ahead of time. In fact, gaming and software are some of the only markets that don't offer refunds due to lack of satisfaction with the product.

About entitlement. It's funny that you go down the morality "rabbit hole" but completely ignore the entitlement issue. Sure, no one is entitled to video games, and no one is entitled to profits from video games, it's all made up. You are suggesting that they are entitled to the profits of a game they created even though they did nothing to provide said game to a pirate. Yeah, they created the game, but it's the pirates electricity, work, and computer that copied that data and transfered it, all the dev did was sell a copy to the pirate. Why are they "entitled" to a profit beyond the initial sale? Did they pay for the electricity and computer that the pirate used? It costs a dev literally nothing for someone to pirate their game. Or should the electricity company get some sort of "entitlement" because they created the electricity that a dev used to make a game? No? why? Because your electricity is "yours"? Then how come the game isn't "yours" to copy and distribute? Oh, because the basis for all this is down to preference for profit, not morality or entitlement, and the ability to get a law worded against copying.

You're right about the morality thing. We've only decided it should be illegal because we don't like it, not because their is some basis beyond preference that suggests it should be that way, it's all preference. Same with development, they don't "deserve" profits because they have a preference for it and are capable of buying enough lawmakers to get their preferences enforced. That's not deserving, that's using money to enforce the fiction of "entitlement" you are arguing against

This is you forcing your morality on others.

User Info: JKatarn

JKatarn
2 months ago#132
BearShrooms posted...
But we do have the data to back it up. We have the data to back it up from the mountain of people that admit to having done this.


Anecdotal evidence from the odd pirate is not a "mountain" of people. I find it highly dubious that most people, having a presumably fully functioning copy of a game on their drive are going to pay the license fee out of the goodness of their hearts. Also, without personally scanning the hard-drive/Steam library of every "demoer" we can't say for sure whether they truly buy every game they liked after demoing, or, as I suspect, it's complete bull and their drive is full of pirated games and nothing else.
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User Info: BearShrooms

BearShrooms
2 months ago#133
Also, you completely ignored my discussion about using steam refunds as a demo service being in violation of their TOS. I agreed to the steam contract, I didn't agree to any contracts with random companies and devs about not replicating their products.

Since we've established that it's at least feasible to assume that some piracy does in fact help, or at least become a wash. Lets look at using steams refund policy as a demo policy.

1) It's a violation of your word, you agreed not to do that, then you did it (maybe not YOU, but whoever does this).

2) It ABSOLUTELY costs them money to refund a game. Sure, you might demo it and buy it, the same as a pirate might, and this is a net positive. A pirate might demo and not buy, this is a net 0. But if you steam refund demo and not keep then steam has to pay someone to refund that for you, which costs steam money, that they have to pass onto the devs. At best steam demo'ing is a wash with pirating and can even be harmful.

Now I'm not saying that steam refunding is worse than piracy. Certainly there are less profits gained by someone pirating a game they would've bought vs them buying it and deciding not to keep it. But it can be more harmful to use steam refunds as demo's. Also, you agreed to not use steam as refunds, you didn't agree not to pirate.

User Info: BearShrooms

BearShrooms
2 months ago#134
JKatarn posted...
BearShrooms posted...
But we do have the data to back it up. We have the data to back it up from the mountain of people that admit to having done this.


Anecdotal evidence from the odd pirate is not a "mountain" of people. I find it highly dubious that most people, having a presumably fully functioning copy of a game on their drive are going to pay the license fee out of the goodness of their hearts. Also, without personally scanning the hard-drive/Steam library of every "demoer" we can't say for sure whether they truly buy every game they liked after demoing, or, as I suspect, it's complete bull and their drive is full of pirated games and nothing else.


Your justification for not believing the evidence is that literally every single one of them is lying? Because unless literally every single one of them is lying than there is at least some situations wherein piracy actually is for demos.

If your assumption is still that literally everyone is lying then certainly you won't mind me assuming that everything you say is a lie, right?

User Info: JKatarn

JKatarn
2 months ago#135
BearShrooms posted...
JKatarn posted...
BearShrooms posted...
But we do have the data to back it up. We have the data to back it up from the mountain of people that admit to having done this.


Anecdotal evidence from the odd pirate is not a "mountain" of people. I find it highly dubious that most people, having a presumably fully functioning copy of a game on their drive are going to pay the license fee out of the goodness of their hearts. Also, without personally scanning the hard-drive/Steam library of every "demoer" we can't say for sure whether they truly buy every game they liked after demoing, or, as I suspect, it's complete bull and their drive is full of pirated games and nothing else.


Your justification for not believing the evidence is that literally every single one of them is lying? Because unless literally every single one of them is lying than there is at least some situations wherein piracy actually is for demos.

If your assumption is still that literally everyone is lying then certainly you won't mind me assuming that everything you say is a lie, right?


I don't need to know every single one of them to know human nature - let me ask you a question, have you personally visited every pirate that claims they use pirated copies as "demos" - have you verified their digital licenses for games on Steam/GoG etc.? No? Then you're really in no more position to judge. I don't believe that every pirated copy = a lost sale, I'm just sick of all these flimsy justifications - if you pirate because you can, don't care about the health of the industry/draconian DRM being foisted on honest consumers because of your sense of entitlement, and have little fear of reprisal, just admit it. Most aren't on some "holy anti-DRM/corporate" crusade, they're doing it because it's free, and there's little fear of reprisal. The only thing they care about is getting free games.
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User Info: DaedalusEx

DaedalusEx
2 months ago#136
Of course you can't prove that piracy increases sales, but it's easy enough to show that it can: the fact that promotional giveaways exist--and work. Promotional giveaways, for the uninitiated, are when companies give away free s*** to get people talking about their product. Obviously piracy isn't the same as a promotional giveaway, but it has the potential to increase sales in the same way.

In fact, I'd say it's inarguable that piracy generates some sales. After all, it leads to more people playing a game than otherwise would've. More people playing = more people talking = more sales (if the experience was positive, anyway.) The question is does piracy increase net sales? It's possible that it does.

User Info: BearShrooms

BearShrooms
2 months ago#137
JKatarn posted...
BearShrooms posted...
JKatarn posted...
BearShrooms posted...
But we do have the data to back it up. We have the data to back it up from the mountain of people that admit to having done this.


Anecdotal evidence from the odd pirate is not a "mountain" of people. I find it highly dubious that most people, having a presumably fully functioning copy of a game on their drive are going to pay the license fee out of the goodness of their hearts. Also, without personally scanning the hard-drive/Steam library of every "demoer" we can't say for sure whether they truly buy every game they liked after demoing, or, as I suspect, it's complete bull and their drive is full of pirated games and nothing else.


Your justification for not believing the evidence is that literally every single one of them is lying? Because unless literally every single one of them is lying than there is at least some situations wherein piracy actually is for demos.

If your assumption is still that literally everyone is lying then certainly you won't mind me assuming that everything you say is a lie, right?


I don't need to know every single one of them to know human nature - let me ask you a question, have you personally visited every pirate that claims they use pirated copies as "demos" - have you verified their digital licenses for games on Steam/GoG etc.? No? Then you're really in no more position to judge. I don't believe that every pirated copy = a lost sale, I'm just sick of all these flimsy justifications - if you pirate because you can, don't care about the health of the industry/draconian DRM being foisted on honest consumers because of your sense of entitlement, and have little fear of reprisal, just admit it. Most aren't on some "holy anti-DRM/corporate" crusade, they're doing it because it's free, and there's little fear of reprisal. The only thing they care about is getting free games.


If we assume that even half of the people claiming "demo" are telling the truth then it is a mountain of people. Maybe not in this specific topic but in all of the claims around. Since it's probably safest to assume half are lying and half are telling the truth (since, as you said, it's impossible to prove).

I dont have to know literally every pirates situation to know that if even one of those people is telling the truth about demo'ing than in at least one situation "pirating helps sales", which was the entire purpose of the sentence you quoted in the first place.

User Info: DaedalusEx

DaedalusEx
2 months ago#138
JKatarn posted...
I'm just sick of all these flimsy justifications


It seems people care more about how pirates view their actions than the actions themselves...

User Info: BearShrooms

BearShrooms
2 months ago#139
DaedalusEx posted...
JKatarn posted...
I'm just sick of all these flimsy justifications


It seems people care more about how pirates view their actions than the actions themselves...


That's kind of what this discussion has evolved into. I suspect it's because most of the anti-piracy people can't prove that piracy hurts anything but are still against it, for whatever reason.

I wonder if jealousy is one of those reasons.
The cranky hermit 2 months ago#140
BearShrooms posted...
If we assume that even half of the people claiming "demo" are telling the truth then it is a mountain of people.

It's not a mountain of people, and this can be proven. Games with demos get pirated at the exact same rate as games without demos. So assuming you've actually seen two mountains of people claim it's just a "demo," most of them are liars.

I suspect it's because most of the anti-piracy people can't prove that piracy hurts anything

It's on the pro-piracy people to prove it doesn't hurt anything, which of course they can't. The idea that piracy hurts developers only needs to assume that all other things being equal, consumers will pick free over not free. You know what else assumes this? Pretty much everything about economic theory.

To believe that piracy doesn't hurt anything, you have to believe that of the millions of people pirating any given game, none of them actually wanted it. And that's f***ing stupid.

I wonder if jealousy is one of those reasons.

That's also f***ing stupid. If consumers who don't pirate were jealous of those who do, what would stop them from pirating too? Absolutely nothing. You're not special or talented because you know how to pirate a game.
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