According to Nomura, FFXV will only use Luminous Studio for lighting and CGI.

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  3. According to Nomura, FFXV will only use Luminous Studio for lighting and CGI.

User Info: sawplo

sawplo
4 years ago#151
Further to this, graphics doesn't sell games. Graphics can aid someones enjoyment of a game but they aren't enough to rely on for profit. You already admitted that gameplay is the most important aspect and if they can't get the gameplay right, the graphics won't save it.


Damn, Shin, you still dont get it. I am not saying they should not spend tons of resources on gameplay. What is so hard to comprehend on this?

You are drawing a straight black and white line as if all that exists is "great gameplay" and "poor gameplay". As if there is nothing in between, or if the perception of gameplay especially when it is mediocre can vary tremendously from person to person.

A developer should spend on graphics, because if they end up with an "average gameplay" game, then good graphics will definitely aid in its sales. Good graphics is a great add on to a game. It is what helps "average gameplay" games sell well. So developers are justified in spending lots of money on it.

Perhaps, but a game with great gameplay will typically sell better than a game with great graphics (depending on its marketing, fanbase, genre etc) But this is just a poor defense. You're saying that of two identical cakes, the one with icing will sell better... well duh. If i put jam (more content) in the first cake, that would sell better (which I don't need to prove because you don't seem to back up any of your claims, you simply re-word them repeatedly)


Exactly. You have been arguing a point that I have never once contradicted. I simply said graphics are a "plus" that game developers should spend money on because it is an easy way to make a game more attractive to the average gamer.

And you think you are the majority? Do you honestly believe that people play games for simplified gameplay?


Again, I never said I am for a fact in the majority of my gameplay preferences. I only said I am in the majority when it comes to loving great graphics.

My arguments are based on my perception of the gaming industry (ie reason, facts and evidence) and my conclusion is that gamers like you are the minority.


My arguments are based on me selling my technological products to people for 20 years successfully (well, about 10 years successful, before that we were still trying to figure it out). Pretty sells.

Juding people based on their looks can easily lead to racism, sexism and all kinds of other problems that will interfere with your life. If anything, it's you that has more to prove for thinking this way. Generally, in this modern world we live in, any kind of discrimination is frowned upon and people are generally much better about not judging other people based on how they look.


All I can say is you are an isolated individual if you dont realize the world works this way.

User Info: rapius002

rapius002
4 years ago#152
Wow. You guys are still at it? Can't you all just agree to disagree?

User Info: sawplo

sawplo
4 years ago#153
If their is no loss, why are SE "changing their development policy" and "making a comprehensive review of all titles currently in development" as a direct result of this announced loss? Also this...

""Square Enix has shed its president and announced an "extraordinary loss" for this financial year.

Slow sales of its console games in the West are to blame, Square Enix said in a statement to investors today.

Profit forecasts have been slashed in the wake of plans for "major reforms and restructuring" at the company - an effort that will cost 10 billion yen (£69.87 million).

The company expected to make 3.5 billion yen (£24.4m) profit, but will now make a 13 billion yen (£90m) loss""


I can't say i'm surprised


Shin, with all due respect here. I do think you are an intelligent guy. But, you are speaking like a layman here. You obviously dont have experience in reading a balance sheet or income statement. Net Profit (Net Loss) is not directly related to cash. A 13 billion yen loss is not a cash loss if most of it is due to an adjustment on an asset valuation.

"Extraordinary loss" doesnt mean that it is a "huge loss". It means it is not within the context of normal business operations (ie out of the ordinary type of loss), and most likely indicates a non-cash affect. In this case an asset valuation adjustment, in fact, has nothing to do with cash.

Major reforms and restructuring may cost real money. But that 10 billion yen is being spent to increase cash (which is more important than profit).

Cash is king. Profit and loss are not direct derivatives of cash. They take into account extraordinary items that have nothing to do with business operations. For example, depreciation and amortization. Do you think these things affect cash? They dont. But they sure do affect profit.

I dont go into a restaurant and tell a chef how to cook. In everything else we are discussing here, it involves some opinion. But, with regard to these financials, I have been doing this for over 20 years. I have presented intangible valuations on my company's balance sheet for years. I am not going to get into a detailed lesson here on profit, loss, valuations and cash.

You can believe what you want about SE's financial shape. I can read a balance sheet.

User Info: Ultimate_Finale

Ultimate_Finale
4 years ago#154
1Truth posted...
However, he


Typos can change the entire tone of the message.

1Truth posted...
Here's a famous screen of the in-game graphics found in The Division:
http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1496109869_1371013857.jpg


Meh, just looks like an upscaled PS3 game TBH. Nothing too fancy.
Now Playing: Grand Theft Auto V (360), Silent Hill 2 (PS2)
http://i.imgur.com/2xDYYuk.png

User Info: ShinGouken

ShinGouken
4 years ago#155
sawplo posted...
Damn, Shin, you still dont get it. I am not saying they should not spend tons of resources on gameplay. What is so hard to comprehend on this?


You insist that gaming companies should allocate a (vague) proportion of their budget on graphics. I have demonstrated that not only is it not necessary, but the biggest selling franchises (that dwarf FF sales) for the most part spend very little of their budget on graphics.

Graphics do not make the impact on sales you seem to think they do. They aid enjoyment to a gamer who has purchased the game but they don't encourage gamers to buy a game (except for you and your minority)

Exactly. You have been arguing a point that I have never once contradicted. I simply said graphics are a "plus" that game developers should spend money on because it is an easy way to make a game more attractive to the average gamer.


There is that word "should" again. No, they shouldn't. A baker does not have to put icing on a cake, he can sell a cake with jam or sprinkles and people will buy it if that's what they want. Games for graphic whores exist but their sales are not on par with games that focus on gameplay.

Is it so hard for you to see that graphics are not a nesessity in videogames? Games sell huge amounts of titles on gameplay alone. Pokemon is still using flat 2D graphics that are drawn to represent 3d (like me drawing a "3D" square on a piece of paper) and will be finally going 3D almost 20 years after it first hit stores. Minecraft is using graphics that make the PS1 look like something from the far distant future.

Everytime you say a gaming company "should" spend on graphics, i will reply with "games don't need graphics". If you want me to stop repeating myself then lead by example.

My arguments are based on me selling my technological products to people for 20 years successfully (well, about 10 years successful, before that we were still trying to figure it out). Pretty sells.


Have you ever made a computer game and sold it (successfully)? If the answer is no, your experience in "technological products" is irrelevant. People might care a great deal about how their laptops or mobile phones look, but that is in no way a reflection on the gaming market..

Though i would argue that a laptop or phones design contributes only marginally (if at all) to their sales.

Stop ignoring the evidence within the market we are discussing and stop using your experience in an entirely different market.
Final FFXII Perfect game Inventory Video (3000 Hours) - http://youtu.be/d1V1W1o2PJ0

User Info: ShinGouken

ShinGouken
4 years ago#156
All I can say is you are an isolated individual if you dont realize the world works this way.


No offense (actually, please go ahead and take offense) but i'm not taking worldview advice from a 50 year old man who enjoys watching preteen girls in short skirts trying to save the world. A man who has a wardrobe filled with the same clothes and never makes a decision if he can get someone else to make it for him. A man who admits he doesn't have an active sex life and places little to no value in coupling. You're so far away from what i would consider to be normal that i would question any kind of view or opinion you have even if i initially agreed.

A 13 billion yen loss is not a cash loss if most of it is due to an adjustment on an asset valuation.


""Slow sales of its console games in the West are to blame, Square Enix said in a statement to investors today""

It has little (but not all) to do with asset valuation. SE blame slow sales in console games. This is why they are "changing their development policy" and "making a comprehensive review of all titles currently in development". It is a step to ensure that games spend less time in development and meet their targets concerning sales.

SE announce a loss as a result of poor sales
SE change development policies and review all titles currently in development.

I don't give a f**** how much of their loss is a result of asset evaluation and how much is related to sales (although SE specifically state the loss is related to poor sales) . They took a hit financially as a result of poor sales and are taking measures to improve their sales profits in the future. I'm sure, their balance sheet adds up fine (and may even look quite nice) but that doesn't magically change the loss involved with the poor sales and the steps they are taking to improve them.
Final FFXII Perfect game Inventory Video (3000 Hours) - http://youtu.be/d1V1W1o2PJ0

User Info: Lea_Monde

Lea_Monde
4 years ago#157
rapius002 posted...
Wow. You guys are still at it? Can't you all just agree to disagree?


Yeah, it's pathetic...
Wellspring of the Dark.

User Info: CokaineCowboy77

CokaineCowboy77
4 years ago#158
1Truth posted...
Yes.

The Division looks like playable CGI and it's already running in real-time on PS4. Go and watch the E3 2013 playthrough in 1080p and that will prove to you that playable CGI like Agni's Philosophy is indeed possible on PS4. If they're getting graphics this good before PS4 is even out, you can be sure that by the time PS4 is reaching the end of its life, games will look like photorealistic CGI.

Here's a famous screen of the in-game graphics found in The Division:
http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/1496109869_1371013857.jpg


The Division is playable CGI. All games are.

And that screen is nowhere near the level of graphical quality of AP. I think you're thinking too much about texture and skin detail instead of rendering and animation, which is what made AP impressive. Like the actual cinamatography of AP was much better than The Division's gameplay.

But, you can't compare the two, as I've tried to say, they're completely different types of images.
"When it comes to sex don't test my skills, 'cause my head game got you head over heels" - Lil' Kim

User Info: sawplo

sawplo
4 years ago#159
Is it so hard for you to see that graphics are not a nesessity in videogames? Games sell huge amounts of titles on gameplay alone. Pokemon is still using flat 2D graphics that are drawn to represent 3d (like me drawing a "3D" square on a piece of paper) and will be finally going 3D almost 20 years after it first hit stores. Minecraft is using graphics that make the PS1 look like something from the far distant future.

Everytime you say a gaming company "should" spend on graphics, i will reply with "games don't need graphics". If you want me to stop repeating myself then lead by example.


I have never said that games "need" good graphics to sell well. How many times do I have to repeat this? I said game developers are justified in spending a lot of money on graphics because they cant know for sure that their gameplay will have mass appeal.

Let me reword it this way. If a game developer knows without a doubt that the gameplay will have huge mass appeal, then they dont need to spend on graphics to sell the game. But, if a game developer is unsure of this mass appeal, they are justified in spending on graphics because great graphics attract the average gamer.

Seriously, Shin. You keep arguing a point that I have never once disputed.

Stop ignoring the evidence within the market we are discussing and stop using your experience in an entirely different market.


The market evidence shows that graphics are continually improving. If graphics dont matter, why do they even bother improving them?

You insist that gaming companies should allocate a (vague) proportion of their budget on graphics. I have demonstrated that not only is it not necessary, but the biggest selling franchises (that dwarf FF sales) for the most part spend very little of their budget on graphics.


I think I am just going to quote you to end this:

Does this mean people can't enjoy it? No. But it's certainly not aimed at FF fans or RPG fans. It was influenced by FPS's (look it up) and is aimed at the new generation of gamers who care about graphics and fast paced action. You can enjoy it, but if you're going to get on your high horse for the rest of the fans who were disapointed by it then expect a battle because there is a huge chunk of FF fans who felt betrayed by it and feel as if they have wasted their money.

Take a look at the bold. Now I will give you credit, you seem to indicate that this is related to the "new generation of gamer", but you admit these gamers "care about graphics".

So, let me ask you a simple question. If the new generations of gamers care about graphics, who do you think game developers want to market to?

Bottom line - this is something you said, which shows that even you realize that gamers out there, especially the new generation of gamers, care about graphics. Even taking "just" the new generation of gamer, this is a large group, and without a doubt this is a group that developers will focus on. So that means making games with great graphics.

Do I need to say anything more? You know, Shin, this just proves you argue for the sake of argument. You will simply contradict yourself just to maintain an argument.

User Info: cs72

cs72
4 years ago#160
It was terrible, my argument is based on a measurement of ordinal utility, so you have nothing against this position. Saying it was a bad game for SE standards is a fact. In the Big Leagues, not college or garage band level, it was a low-level game in terms of gameplay and story. It has exponentially better graphics, but even exponentially worse gameplay and story. Yes poll whatever you need to poll. Hopefully that will be fun for you.
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