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    Bug/Glitch FAQ by Doktor X

    Version: 0.85 | Updated: 07/27/03 | Search Guide | Bookmark Guide

    Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
    XBox Version Bug/Glitch FAQ
    FAQ Version 0.85
    Copyright 2003 by Doktor X
    Last Revision: July 27th, 2003
    Originally Created: July 25th, 2003 by Doktor X
    This FAQ is currently hosted at GameFAQs.com and StarWarsKnights.com
    These are the ONLY approved sites for this FAQ. If you find it anywhere else,
    they are using it without permission, and I cannot promise that you are seeing
    the latest version. If you run a gaming site and would like to host this FAQ
    please e-mail me with your site's details, and I will get back to you before
    the next revision.
    1. Introduction
    2. Revisions
    3. Contact
    4. General Advice
       a. On Saving (The _MOST_IMPORTANT_PART_ of this guide!)
       b. Other issues
    5. Known Bugs (With Workarounds If Available)
       a. The Dreaded "Carth Glitch" (aka Stealth Glitch)
       b. Galaxy Droid
       c. Pazaak vs. Kudo on Tatooine
       d. Saving Levels for Jedi (aka Party XP Bug)
       e. The Invisible Player-Character
       f. Locking/Crashing/Freezing
       g. Floating Characters
       h. Mission's Side-Quest
       i. Equip/Un-equip Related Bugs
       j. Sand People Enclave Glitch
       k. Black Outs
    6. Exploits
       a. Unlimited XP on Taris
       b. Swoop Racing Restart
    7. Final Note
    8. Contributors
    I'm writing this guide because it is important for your enjoyment of the game.
    This is a great game but, but unfortunately there are some bugs that can
    totally ruin it for you, unless you follow my advice. Some people have played
    through the whole game without any problems, but the bugs are definitely
    there. I think that the most important point of this guide is the section on
    Saving. If you learn nothing else from this guide, learn the importance of
    keeping multiple save files! You can work around almost all of the bugs in
    this game if you have a save point to go back to.
    This is such a great game, it truly saddens me that the game had to ship with
    all of these bugs in it. I am not writing this post to flame BioWare in any
    way. I have a great respect for the work that they do, and the games that they
    have created. It is my hope that they will come out with a patch for this
    game, if at all possible, and make this FAQ completely pointless. Until such
    time, I will collect and report on known bugs in the game.
    If you are wishing to completely avoid spoilers, you can still safely read the
    General Advice section. The last two sections will be as vague as possible,
    while still giving all the info needed to document the bugs. There should not
    be any major story spoilers, but some minor spoilers might be there. Wherever
    possible, I'll warn you about them before hand, but you should still read
    those sections at your own risk.
    July 27th, 2003 - Version 0.85
    - First major update! Thanks for all the e-mails!
    - Added approved hosts to top of file
    - Fixed a few spelling errors
    - Additional instructions added to Contact section (3)
    - Additional info added to Carth Glitch (5a)
    - Additional info added to Galaxy Droid (5b)
    - Additional info added to Saving Levels for Jedi (5d)
    - Additional info added to Locking/Crashing/Freezing (5f)
    - Added Floating Characters Glitch (5g)
    - Added Mission's Side-Quest Bug (5h)
    - Added Equip/Un-equip Related Bugs (5i)
    - Added Sand People Enclave Glitch (5j)
    - Added Black Out Glitch (5k)
    - Added Exploits Section! (6)
    - Added Contributors section (8)
    July 25th, 2003 - Version 0.75
    - FAQ first created
    3. CONTACT
    E-mail: doktorx_faq@yahoo.com
    If you have any useful information to contribute to this FAQ, please e-mail
    me. If you want credit for your contribution, be sure to include what name you
    want to be credited as. I won't include your e-mail address in the FAQ unless
    you specifically request it. If your e-mail includes both a handle and a real
    name, I'll use the handle by default. If there's no name, I'll use the part of
    your e-mail address that appears before the @ sign.
    E-mailing bugs to me implies consent to use your name, and quote your message
    in this FAQ. If you would like to have your name or quote removed from this
    FAQ for any reason, please e-mail me at: doktorx_faq@yahoo.com
    If I quote you, I might correct your spelling, but I won't fix grammar or
    punctuation errors. I'm not your English teacher. Try to keep it legible! If
    you've got a spell check on your e-mail editor, save me some time and use it.
    For copyright reasons, I am not allowed to copy and paste quotes from forums.
    If you have a bug report, please write it in your own words.
    PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT tech support! I won't respond to any "Please help me!"
    e-mails. If you have good, specific info, I can use it for the FAQ, but I just
    don't have the time to respond to specific requests. No, I will NOT tell you
    how to beat the Rancor!
    4a. On Saving (The _MOST_IMPORTANT_PART_ of this guide!)
    I said it in the intro, and I'll say it again: If you learn nothing else from
    this guide, learn the importance of keeping multiple save files! You can work
    around almost all of the bugs in this game if you have a save point to go back
    to. If you only have one or two save files, and you run into any of the bugs
    detailed below (especially the Carth Glitch), your game WILL be ruined, and
    you won't be able to do anything other than start all over from the very
    beginning. You don't want to start over from the beginning, do you? No? Then
    please listen to this advice:
    Save early, and save OFTEN - INTO A SEPARATE FILE - as often as you can stand!
    Do NOT rely on the auto-save! The game will auto-save into the same slot every
    time, writing over itself, even if you are playing with a different character.
    If you are only using the auto-save, and you start a new game, you will loose
    all of your progress. The auto-save is there as a safety precaution in case
    you forget to save, but it is not intended to be your only save file!
    Don't continually over-write the same saves, your XBox should have plenty of
    disk space, so USE IT!
    If you are avoiding reading the rest of this guide for fear of spoilers, know
    this: The worst bug in the game, the Carth Glitch, can be overcome with a
    minimal amount of back-tracking, if you take this simple precaution - On the
    Ebon Hawk, save before you select a new planet to go to, every time. Do not
    save over this file, and do not delete it. There are other ways around it,
    but you'll have to read the Carth Glitch section for more specific
    If you want to be extra-careful, he's a list of recommended save-points:
    1. On the Ebon Hawk, save before you select a new planet to go to, every time.
    2. When you exit the Ebon Hawk onto a new planet, save before you start to
    3. Before you enter an area where you think there might be a lot of fighting
    4. As soon as you begin a fight with a boss character
    5. As soon as you END a fight with a boss character
    6. Save AT LEAST once an hour.
    7. Save any other time you feel like it.
    And don't use the same file every time!
    There is an added benefit to having all of these save files: You will be able
    to re-play any part of the game you want, without having to start over. There
    are planets that you won't be able to go back to, and when that happens, you
    might decide to load an old save and finish all of the missions there. There
    are multiple ways to solve each mission. You might want to see how things
    turned out if you did it differently. If you saved into separate slots, you
    can do that.
    I was overly careful with my saving, so I used over 300 saves to finish the
    game the first time through. (This is beyond the space available on the X-Box,
    so I would delete the oldest saves every few hours.) This is extreme, and you
    probably don't need to do that many, but I only experienced one glitch, and
    when it happened I only had to replay about ten minutes of the game to get
    past it.
    You will see people complaining about glitches on the boards. The people who
    are the most vocal about the bugs are complaining because they didn't have a
    save file to fall back on. I don't blame these people for being angry. It
    isn't their fault that there are bugs in the game. I really feel sorry for
    these people if there is nothing they can do to get past the bugs. You don't
    have to end up that way though. Follow my advice, and you should be fine.
    4b. Other Issues
    This FAQ was written specifically to address issues related to the programming
    of the game. These are bugs that can happen to anyone, regardless of how old
    or new their Xbox is, or how careful they are with their hardware and discs.
    There are some issues, however, that could be caused by things that are not
    related to the programming. You might have problems with a scratched, damaged,
    or dirty game disc, or you might have problems with your Xbox such as
    overheating, a malfunctioning DVD drive, or hard drive problems. If the game
    randomly crashes or freezes up, it could be due to these factors. Consult
    the XBox, BioWare, or LucasArts websites and helplines for more specific
    information. You might simply try using a lens cleaner on your DVD drive,
    vacuuming out your XBox, and placing your XBox in a well ventilated area (not
    on the carpet!) with some fans blowing on it.
    You actually MIGHT have a bad or damaged copy of the game disc, in which case
    you should try to take it back to the store where you bought it, but if you
    are having the problems listed below, it's more than likely a programming
    error, and will be the same for every copy of the game, unless they issue a
    patched version.
    5. KNOWN BUGS (With Workarounds If Available)
    5a. The Dreaded "Carth Glitch" (aka Stealth Glitch)
    This is generally considered the worst bug in the game. If you saved on the
    Ebon Hawk before selecting a new planet each time, you can get around this
    glitch by reloading and doing some things differently. If you don't want
    (minor) spoilers, skip the next few paragraphs and just know that keeping old
    saves is a good idea.
    This is actually a bug in stealth, and is not specific to the situation
    described below. It will actually happen in other places, if you have a
    cloaked character when you enter a cut-scene. The situation below is the most
    common place people will see this problem, but it's not the only one.
    At a certain point in the game, you will have to choose a single party member
    to stay behind to help you later. If you haven't played the game before, you
    will know this part when you come to it because the game will give you the
    choice of who to pick for this part. Some people will tell you not to pick 
    Mission for this, but the real problem is if you use stealth/cloaking. If your
    character is cloaked when you finish this section, you will probably get the
    Carth Glitch. It won't happen right away, but during a certain cut scene, the
    game will not advance past a line of dialog from Carth, because Mission is
    supposed to speak next, and you can't see her!
    The game actually makes a roll of your awareness vs. her stealth during this
    cut-scene! IF you have a high enough awareness or are wearing awareness
    enhancing equipment you might be able to get past this. The game will
    automatically re-roll every 20 seconds, so if it is mathematically possible
    for you to beat Mission's stealth, you can just leave the game sitting, and
    it will eventually get past this. It make take minutes, but it could also
    take hours. If you have little or no awareness, then the only way to get past
    this is to load a previous save. If you didn't use stealth on this part, you
    shouldn't get the bug.
    Also, I'm pretty sure this is based on the awareness of YOUR character, and
    not Carth's awareness. I've seen some people say that you should try raising
    Carth's awareness, though. If you know for certain either way, please e-mail
    Simon Magus discusses the rules involved in the stealth roll:
       "The game uses a system similar to the d20 system used by many
        pencil-and-paper RPG's.  Near as I can tell, the check to spot a person 
        in stealth mode is dependent upon both the cloaked person's Stealth
        ability and the spotter's Awareness ability.  I haven't seen it stated
        anywhere explicitly, but the formula is almost certainly something like
        DC + Stealth skill + other mods VS d20 roll + Awareness skill + other mods
        The DC is probably 10 or 15 (15 is more likely - and it's safer to assume
        the higher value).  Modifiers for Stealth include Dexterity modifier and
        feats/equipment which increase the Stealth skill.  Modifiers for Awareness
        include Wisdom modifier and feats/equipment which increase the Awareness
        So, if 20 plus the Awareness modifiers is equal to or greater than the DC
        plus Stealth modifiers, it is mathematically possible for the person to be
        I'll let you know if I figure out exactly what the DC is, but signs point
        toward 15."
    From jwooley4991:
       "This game is based on the 3e d20 system, and if you roll a 20 thats an
        automatic success, there is always a chance. I play the pen and paper
        and it says that in the rule book, but it may have been changed, no clue
    I'm not sure if that's true for this game or not. Some people have left the
    game on overnight at this point, and still not rolled past it. If there truly
    IS always a 1 in 20 chance, and the game re-rolls every 20 seconds, it
    shouldn't take too long.
    5b. Galaxy Droid
    So far, I don't think anyone has figured out how to repeat this, but some
    people have experienced a bug(?) where the Star Map is replaced by a droid
    called the Galaxy Droid, who will take you to any planet you want, even the
    planets you shouldn't have access to at that point in the story. Selecting
    certain planets will cause the game to freeze. If you get this bug, you might
    want to save it to a separate file, because it's pretty cool, but it WILL mess
    up your game. If you load previous save file, you should be fine.
    Some people believe that this is some sort of debugging mode accidentally left
    in the game by the programmers, but nobody can make it happen on purpose yet,
    as far as I know.
    ******possible SPOILERS******
    This usually happens after the Leviathan, which makes it similar to the Carth
    Glitch. I'm not sure if the two glitches are related, however.
    Sightings of the Galaxy Droid are usually accompanied by seeing your crew
    standing in the main room of the Ebon Hawk, instead of in their usual
    positions, just like scene when you pick the character to rescue you from
    the Leviathan. If you see this happen, check your ship for the Galaxy Droid.
    j b writes:
       "went down to fight Malak, beat him, escaped, did the "shooter mini-game"
        and hyper-spaced out.
        then the game dies. the screen goes totally black, the music begins
        doubling over itself... if you do things.... force powers, press 'y' to
        ignite your lightsaber, etc the sound effects go of without a hitch...
        but none of the useful buttons work (namely, the start button)...........
        well, sometimes they don't work.
        In one instance so far, by screwing around with everything i could, I
        finally got the start menu to show up. the area map in the start menu
        still showed the hanger of the Leviathan, but titled it the Ebon Hawk. if
        you left the start menu, the screen was still black, but if you saved and
        reloaded the game, you could actually see again. Juhani and mission were
        no where to be found, when i loaded it up, and the galaxy droid was at the
        helm of the ship.
        Like you said, the galaxy droid, is like a hack, allowing you to go
        anywhere in the game, as if you'd never been there before (as long as
        they were completed events.....)
        essentially, it could possibly allow you to go back and complete things
        you missed... but missions that had been completed acted as if you'd never
        accepted them.
        it is not, however.... a "cool" thing...... it feels like your in a hacked
        world, it is impossibly choppy, buggy, and kind of disembodied.....
        and the galaxy droid lets you go everywhere in the game, including the
        Spire, and the Unknown world.
        Through this glitch, many others pop up. there is no "leave area" icons
        anymore so you can blunder into them...... and if you do while preforming
        another action, it locks up the game. also, if you go to a place like
        Taris, you loose the ability to return to the hawk. on dantooine, the jedi
        who wanders around the tree plaza will automatically ask you how your
        training goes when you pass through the plaza the first time.......... and
        the trap is set. without reloading, i have yet to be able to return to the
        Ebon hawk. every time you try to leave, the cut-scene of her question pops
        up. and rapid transit is disabled."
    Jim Matthews writes:
       "After getting free from the Leviathan and traveling to my final planet,
        which happened to be the planet with the Sith Academy I spoke with the
        smuggler about the cargo on-board the Ebon Hawk. Before doing anything on
        that planet I went back to Tatooine to complete the smuggling mission.
        Well when my ship arrived at Tatooine, instead of me being loaded into
        the cockpit of the Ebon Hawk like you normally do after travel, I was
        loaded into the big room mentioned above, with all my crew mates in a
        circle formation, minus Bastila.  Well I tried talking to them, thinking
        it was some plot point, but they all had nothing relevant to say. I then
        proceeded to leave the ship, as I walked down the loading ramp, it simply
        loaded Tatooine without asking me what party members I wanted. Not only
        that, but when Tatooine loaded I wasn't in the Space Port as usual... I
        was already in the town.  It never happened again and I don't have any
        explanation.  But I just thought I'd let you be aware of this happening."
    He doesn't mention the Galaxy Droid here, but it sounds like the same bug.
    5c. Pazaak vs. Kudo on Tatooine
    Winning at Pazaak vs. Kudo (I think that's his name) ten times is supposed to
    give you a cool prize. Instead, it gives you a bug. You don't get the prize,
    and you get an entry in your quest list telling you that someone is dead, even
    if he isn't. My advice: Don't play Pazaak with the guy. I didn't try this
    myself, so I don't know if the weird journal entry messes up the story or not,
    but if you got this bug, and you're worried about your story being messed up,
    reload a saved game.
    5d. Saving Levels for Jedi (aka Party XP Bug)
    Some people have reported that saving levels until they become a Jedi causes
    an error in the way XP is calculated for the rest of the party members.
    "Saving Levels" is a strategy in which the player will avoid leveling their
    character's stats until after they become a Jedi in order to get more Force
    powers. Unfortunately, the best way to avoid this bug is to not use this
    strategy.  The more levels you save, the more obvious this bug will become,
    but it should all even out as you get closer to level 20. This isn't a major
    bug, but it has been verified on the BioWare forums. The difference might not
    always be noticeable, and nothing bad should happen to you.
    5e. The Invisible Player-Character
    There have been reports of the player character's head disappearing, or of
    only the character's clothing being seen, giving an "Invisible Man"-type look.
    It seems random to me. I haven't had this problem myself though. E-mail me if
    you know how to make it happen or how to make it stop.
    5f. Locking/Crashing/Freezing
    There's a problem with the game locking up while saving (or loading?) for
    some people. Go to your dashboard and make sure that the time and date are
    set correctly. It has something to do with having the date set too far into
    the future (like 2097)!
    Gino I. writes:
       "When I first got the game, I had my Xbox unplugged and when I plugged
        it in and it brought my to the time/date screen which  I accidentally
        skipped through.  So when I put the game in, every time I tried to make
        a character it would lock up until I changed my time/date to what it
        should be."
    I've had freeze-ups sometimes during the auto-save, or at loading screens,
    but I can't find a pattern to them, and my clock is set correctly. Freezes
    have also been reported at the black screen between areas, before the load
    screen appears. There's not too much you can do about it. Just restart your
    XBox and keep going. (You *did* remember to save, right?)
    It's been reported that sometimes restarting the Xbox during a freeze will
    cause save files to incorrectly report huge playing times.
    ******possible SPOILERS******
    Michael Peters writes:
       "When you are on Manaan, and you get to the south structure that has the
        scientist behind a forcefield, if you try to go back to the ocean floor
        before going through the forcefield and talking to the scientist (about
        poisoning the shark and such), it will freeze on the loading screen going
        back to the ocean floor.  I duplicated this bug three times before
        writing about it.  Hope this helps all the gamers out there."
    Sean Campbell writes:
        "One time I saved after giving the journal to Igela and I tried to go back
         into the sewers and it would not let me from the main save I had to use
         the quick save as you enter the sewers. It was the load screen that it
         got stuck on.
         Two times in saving I have corrupt games.
         The game has freezed on me during the transit back to the base.
         The game slows down a lot during some cut-scenes.
         I have the music go on me but still of the back ground noise on. When
         this happens I know the game will freeze soon."
    FinalFantasyAce0 writes:
       "in the ebon hawk at on dantooine. when u  escape taris and land there.
        after bastilla tells u of the council i went in to the ebon hawk to get
        some items. upon leaving the game made a click like the one before
        entering party selection and froze. this wasn't a one timer either. it is
        recurrent only under those circumstances."
    5g. Floating Characters
    ******possible SPOILERS******
    Thanks to Aaron Harper for submitting this:
       "this glitch has happened to me at least 10 times.  i will be running
        around on manaan (right outside your hanger in that long hallway), and
        something weird happens.  i think it happens randomly, because it only
        happens about 1/3 of the time i'm there.  i turn my camera around often
        (because my party will just completely stop moving all of the sudden).
        so i look back, and bastila is gone (by the way, this always happens
        when i'm controlling my created character).  so i switch to her for her
        to catch up, and i start to run.  she gets into the motion like she's
        about to run, but she freezes in mid-step of running (her right leg is
        in the air, while her left leg is back).  she moves around, floating
        like this.  when you stop, she brings her legs down normally, then the
        floating thing happens every time i run with her.  so i switch to my other
        party member, hk-47.  now my created character is doing this (they will
        follow you while floating as well).  bastila and the created character
        are the only people i can get this to work with outside the hanger.
        the glitch will go away after you hit a loading zone.
        while i was in the sith base on manaan, in front of the big purple force
        shield thing, it happened again, except with jolee.  this happened after
        bastila left my party (kidnapped my darth malak).  i was running into the
        purple shield with jolee, and the floating glitch happened again, but it
        automatically went away a few minutes later for some reason.  and i've
        never been able to get it work again in the sith base.
        at first i thought that it had something to do with my level of the force,
        but i don't think so.  it doesn't hurt my game, but it's a hell of a lot
        of fun to use!"
    5h. Mission's Side-Quest
    ******possible SPOILERS******
    It has been reported that some people have problems on Tatooine with the
    Mission's Brother side-quest.
    From Nicole and Bill Maddocks:
       "After speaking to the Sandpeople chieftain, he says to take Griff and
        leave, but I am unable to find Griff anywhere in the Sandpeople Enclave.
        (Looks like he supposed to be in one of the prisoner cells, but...)
        If this is a glitch, looks like it happens when you complete Tatooine
        and go to other planets before returning to do this side-quest."
    5i. Equip/Un-equip Related Bugs
    These are included for the sake of completeness. They might be bugs, or they
    might be intended behavior, it could go either way.
    ******possible SPOILERS******
    From Paul Imhoff:
       "In the lower Shadowlands of Kashyyyk, in an attempt to take out the
        stealth Mandelorians, I was unable to equip weapons for one character
        after the Mandelorians de-cloaked.
        The first and second battle, I was unable to equip Bastila (either hand)
        with her double-bladed lightsaber.
        The third battle, I was unable to equip Jolee (either hand).
        My only supposition that this may not be a glitch is that the Mandelorians
        de-cloaked too close to the affected character, thus not allowing them to
        be armed."
    Also, space suits and/or underwater suits have a tendency to un-equip your
    weapons. Check your equip screen for all characters after you leave these
    scenes to be sure you're still equiped. This might be intended behavior for
    those suits, but I wanted to include it anyway, just in case.
    5j. Sand People Enclave Glitch
    ******possible SPOILERS******
    Possible problems when trying to enter the Enclave, even with Sand People
    Clothing on. Further details, and a solution can be found at:
    I'm not allowed to copy and paste from forums for copyright reasons. Hopefully
    that thread will still be there if you are having this problem.
    (Thanks to Cypher50 for the link)
    5k. Black Outs
    This happened to j b around Tatooine:
       "load screens, and often the actual game screens would appear without any
        information (either black, or with minimal frame lining) I got around the
        black out issue there, but it comes back later.."
    Exploits are bugs that can be used to your advantage, to gain things in the
    game without having to work for them. These are considered cheating, but since
    this isn't a multi-player game, the only person you're cheating by using them
    is yourself. Doing these things might make the game less fun for you, and they
    could cause un-intended side effects to your character. Use them at your own
    risk, and don't blame me if you have problems because of them. You don't need
    to cheat to finish the game. I'm including this section because they ARE bugs,
    and that is the point of this FAQ.
    I know there's more exploits out there. E-mail me!
    6a. Unlimited XP on Taris
    ******possible SPOILERS******
    From Zandterman:
       "On Taris, after completing the swoop race, but before completing the Sith
        base, I returned to the Hidden Bek base. I once again spoke to the
        security chief, and was presented the same options as before the swoop
        race. Interested, I once again told them I had the swoop accelerator. I
        was given the overnight waiting cut-scene, and then I showed up at the
        swoop race area. I was instantly awarded some 600 XP, and Bastilla was
        standing there. I had the vision again then was once again returned to
        the apartment.
        I don't know if I was actually awarded the XP, I didn't check. But my
        game has had no ill affects as of yet. This could perhaps turn into a
        place to easily level up before leaving Taris... if you're really
    6b. Swoop Racing Restart
    From Andrew Stehr:
       "well... I was working on my swoop racing in Manaan when I discovered that
        if I push the open disk button on the X-box while in the swoop racing
        screen [while swoop racing (paused or moving)] {popping the disk out} and
        then press the button again (popping it back in), it would start me back
        at the beginning of the race.
        This was very helpful to me seeing that I didn't have to go through a
        bunch of loading screens (and credits) just to reset the race.
        I came across a glitch, however; this little trick made my game-timer
        skyrocket... now on my save-game it says that I have over a million hours
        logged... guess I paid the price for laziness"
    Let me know if this is repeatable on other planets, or just Manaan.
    There are probably other bugs, that may or may not be repeatable. As of this
    writing, these are the only repeatable bugs I know about. If a bug happens
    randomly, you can't plan for it, so it's best to follow my advice on saving.
    Please feel free to contact me using the information in section 3 if you have
    any additions to this guide. Thanks for reading, and I hope I've been able to
    help you get through these things!
    E-mailing bugs to me implies consent to use your name, and quote your message
    in this FAQ. If you would like to have your name or quote removed from this
    FAQ for any reason, please e-mail me at: doktorx_faq@yahoo.com
    Big thanks to: Aaron Harper, Michael Peters, Gino I., Simon Magus,
                   the anialator16, Cukeman12, Sean Campbell, Nicole and Bill
                   Maddocks, Paul Imhoff, ehphoenix, jwooley4991, Zandterman,
                   Cypher50, j b, Jim Matthews, Jeff Pulskamp, Andrew Stehr,

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